Transcript
Mia Willemsen:
Hi, this is Hassell Talks, a podcast series looking at our changing and complex world, and the opportunities for design to create a better place for everyone. It’s a series that’s unashamedly optimistic about creating a beautiful, inclusive, and resilient future.
I’m Mia Willemsen and I’m a senior architect at Hassell. For the last year I have been working with our sustainability team, working on some really cool stuff, like a sustainability framework, sustainably focused research and sharing knowledge, particularly listening to First Nations people. But you know, as I do, that there is so much more designers and individuals can do, which brings me to the episode you’re about to hear. I recently co-hosted a sustainability event in our Melbourne studio organised by Hassell’s WomenIN group.
The event was called Know Your Place, a tongue in cheek call to confidence for women working in the design industry to know how powerful their role and place is in the change we want to make when it comes to sustainability. In this episode, you’re about to get an exclusive insight into that event held in front of more than 150 guests in our Melbourne studio, a converted 1880s warehouse in Melbourne’s Little Collins Street. In the centre of our studio, we created a yarning or dialogue circle. Yarning circles are used in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures, and around the world, as a way to learn from a collective group without hierarchy to build respectful relationships, and to preserve and pass on culture knowledge in a safe and accountable way. Our five speakers, who I’ll introduce, are sitting in the circle facing each other with the roles of interviewer and interviewee relaying around the circle.
The audience, made up of women and men from right across the design and construction industry, are outside the circle listening, interacting, and later asking questions. As our five speakers talk, you’ll hear about their motivations, failures, successes and ideas for inspiring everyday action in environmental and social sustainability. They encouraged us to be brave enough to fail, to talk about our own journey, which empowers others to make good in their own way. Our evening began with an acknowledgement of country from Kat Rodwell. Kat is a Ngunnawal woman who facilitates co-design processes between traditional owner groups and aboriginal communities, design teams and projects stakeholders. Kat’s work encourages us to stop, breathe, and connect, to help us better facilitate connection to country. Her consultancy Balert Mura means strong pathway, and she was the heart and centre facilitating our panel discussion.
Kat Rodwell:
Wominjeka. You are on Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung country, the land of people that have been here for well over 60,000 years, the oldest living culture in the world. I am so honoured as a Ngunnawal bullan, which means Ngunnawal woman to be on Wurundjeri country because their ancestors are everywhere beneath your feet. Our history sleeps. It’s what you see, what you hear, the wind, what you feel, even the rain, what you smell. That is country. And we thank the ancestors for allowing us to walk on country and to work on country. To all the elders for sharing the stories, the knowledge, the protocols with us because you are all creative people. And my respect to you for embedding these stories of country in architecture, in designs, in the urban designs, in everything we do, we walk together. In my country we say (speaks in Ngunnawal language) which means you are welcome to put your footprints on my country. We walk together. So from Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung, I say thank you on behalf of all of this.
Mia:
Kat turns to her right and begins her yarn with one of the founding members of the Australian Passive House Association and certified passive house trainer, Clare Parry. Clare has a background in mechanical engineering with a portfolio of sustainability accreditations right across the Australian building industry. She lives and breathes a sustainability methodology, working towards a framework that makes sustainability easier for everyone.
Kat:
Country is sick. We can no longer heal country. That’s off the table now, but we can connect to country to stop the hurt, to stop the bleed. So that’s our mission tonight. So let’s work together today and let’s make a difference. So Clare, I want to know for me an aboriginal person, we say country is our mother and we are connected on so many levels. So when country’s sick, we are actually sick, and we can see a huge change in country. And you talk about sustainability, to sustain. We’re the first architects, we’re the first sustainable people. So I know what we can do. What is a clear path? What do you see as a clear pathway for sustainability?
Clare Parry:
I think it’s quite contentious because we start to hear and feel free to approach me in the break. Regeneration isn’t the new buzzword. I’ll say buzzword because in my mind sustainability isn’t about we’re here, let’s keep going, this is great. It’s about connecting back to care for country. And I think I don’t know that well enough. I rely on first peoples to help us with that. But I definitely want to make space and open up that space for first peoples to help us to understand what sustainability is from a care for country perspective. I feel it. I know that I feel it. So it’s not about a thing that I do for my job. I’m from Northwest Tassie. But I tell everyone that. And if you’ve asked me anything about me, I will have told you that because I still feel it even though I left there a long time ago. But that connection to country is very real and watching the earth and country struggle is very debilitating to me. So I find it really hard to actually to keep going sometimes.
Kat:
And for me, just listening to you and the way you speak, you understand that connection to country. So in your role, I did read a little tiny bit, I’m going to admit that now. But you talk about even any one of us in our home life or the common person can be sustainable and can live sustainable and their houses can be redesigned. I’ve worked in the building industry, construction industry and sometimes it’s hitting a brick wall. Literally sometimes, because they don’t understand that to design with country, as you all say, sustainability really, really needs to be at the top of that list. So what do you do in your role?
Clare:
I spend every day trying to get everyone to understand that, which is fun. But I felt a shift, and it was probably just before COVID started, but COVID really accelerated that shift. Sustainability was probably the second last person in the room to be asked in a team meeting like, the issues this week are… why is this last? Sorry. But the shift has been substantial and it’s been dramatic and it’s only getting more and more front and centre. And I might live in a bubble, but I don’t see a single news article. Might be reading specific news articles, but that doesn’t talk about the impacts of climate change and sustainability and health and wellbeing, which are all linked and everything is coming back to we are doing a really shit job of caring for country.
Kat:
Okay. In one sentence… Now, you’re going to put you on the spot put you on the spot for this one. In one sentence, sum up something easy all of us could do towards a sustainable life.
Clare:
I think reconnect.
Kat:
Perfect. That’s one word. I love it. One word.
Clare:
Become more efficient and reconnect.
Kat:
I like that because I said, you’re right because sustainability, people always put it last because they put it in the two hard baskets. And it’s not really, it’s the simple things as you’re just saying, reuse, recycle. We forget that, and you tend to put that into houses and what you’re talking about. So I love that you got that accreditation about that and putting people on the spot to say you need to be accountable and we all need to be accountable to this.
Clare:
Yeah, a hundred percent. I think all those accreditations are just because I was looking for what’s the right answer here. And when I started my career it’s like well you need all these accreditations to do your job. And I was like, well these aren’t the right ones because they don’t seem to work. How about these ones? And I kept sort of following this path and now I’ve got 15 accreditations. Wasn’t intentional but yeah, still looking for the right answer to be honest.
Kat:
So what is the accreditation though? What it’s about?
Clare:
I’ve got a bunch.
Kat:
What is the best one? Pick one of them.
Clare:
I mean the one that I hold probably front and centre for me because I’ve chosen to specialise quite specifically is Passive House. And it’s really pursuing what is the best we can do with a particular built form. It’s not always the right answer and it’s not the only thing we need to do, but it is the thing that we do so badly that could make the biggest difference, I think so. That’s the one I’ve got.
Kat:
I love it. No it’s good. I love what you do because you stand up and as I said, you’re not someone who’s going to wilt when you’ve gone through so many experiments to get this right and we’re never going to get it right because if we become perfect then there’s no more room for improvement, is there?
Clare:
I mean if you hadn’t known me when I was about 17, you could have pushed me over with a feather. I think it’s taken a lot of time to get the confidence to actually find that space in a project, in a meeting room and in my work. But I think if you just keep asking questions, keep following basically. And that’s the single piece of advice I’d give to anybody starting their career is follow your passion. I know that’s pretty trite but find what it means for you.
Kat:
Thank you Clare.
Clare:
Fantastic. Thank you.
Mia:
And now Clare turns to her right to yarn with Maree Marshall. Maree is the director of waste management and circular economy at WSP leading a team across Australia and New Zealand. Her zero waste strategies are both innovative and celebrated. Arming precincts, councils and everything in between with action plans that encompass waste hierarchy and circular economy principles. Maree’s knowledge of the world of waste is incredible. She knows who generates it, what they generate, where it ends up and how it can be avoided.
Clare:
Maree, so I first met you when I was in meetings with you and Sam and I couldn’t get a word in edgeways, which is why we don’t know each other very well. But what became really, really clear was you’re passionate about taking what your job is and what is meaningful to you into your life. And I remember one conversation where you and Sam were talking about trading fruit, I think to make alcoholic beverages. Can you tell us more about sort the translation of your passion into how you live?
Maree Marshall
Yes. I did offer Sam my apricots and my grapefruit to make a brew. That is very true. I am a very much a grassroots person. I have embarrassed my family on many a trip. Could you stand beside that bin, photograph the size? But to the point where my youngest got to prep and went up to the teacher and went, “Which bin?” And he was horrified. There was only one and he wasn’t going to put it in the bin. And I thought, OMG, it’s working. I do. I go home every day knowing that I’ve influenced or changed or improved the lives of people who will live in the buildings that I design. Waste is one of those disciplines where my decisions and my team’s decisions and our thinking outside the box will carry on for the life of that building in an operational mode. Were those shoots easy to use?
Did you have the right decisions? Was it adaptable when the government’s now moved the goal post, we’ve got four bins in Victoria, was the design ready for that? Can it change for that? And I go back knowing that I’ve made an enormous impact and for those of you who connected with me on LinkedIn, you’ll know that I chopped up a rainwater tank that I’ve had repaired twice recently and it’s my wood store. I didn’t move it, I didn’t discard it, I repurposed it. And there’s a photo of me in really tatty gardening jeans and a paint covered shirt with a power drill. And I posted it because I do, I believe in what I do.
Clare:
I think that there’s a lot of power in imperfection and in the imperfection of everybody’s approach to sustainability specifically. How do you feel about that statement?
Maree:
It’s very, very true. If we were waiting for perfection, we wouldn’t be prepared to think outside the box. My team aren’t drilled, don’t repeat the design to me. I want to see an improvement, I want to see alternate thinking. How are we going to get to the next step? And the comment came up just before, sustainability, to sustain is to keep it the same level. Well hang on. I want improvement not to sustain. I want to put the accelerator on, remove things from the system. I want avoidance, recycling’s too late. If you’ve used it and now you’re going to recycle it, too late, way too late. You had a decision to make much earlier that to avoid or to refuse and to rethink. Did you make that decision before you put the shopping bag in the car or walk to the shop? Avoid it. If you were thinking about recycling that plastic bag, you’re too far down the chain. So I think it’s exceptionally important.
Clare:
Absolutely. Tell us about how you got to where you are. Did you start here and is this where you thought you’d end up?
Maree:
No. I only failed one subject at uni that was hydraulics and then I joined the Board of Works. I’m old. I joined the Board of Works and I started in hydraulics. And I actually started in rock beaching, the Frankston Water Sports Centre, the dam burst, Maree rebuilt it. So nothing sustainable. And I had a boss who he said to me, “You’re very green.” I thought it meant naïve. I had no idea. I was like four years out of uni. He meant I belonged in a green industry. So I was very fortunate to work overseas and I highly recommend it to anyone who can take secondment or a travelling opportunity. You learn an immense amount about you, your culture and your offering. And I came home and I was working for a politician and eventually I just had to get off that rollercoaster. I said I can’t do this anymore.
So I didn’t. Intentional career change. I cut my pay by 50%. I knew I needed to go and work in a feel good industry. I needed to give back, not only to my local community, I needed to give back to me and my family. And so I went to work for local government and I ended up in the environment team and about the second project was to do with waste and I’ve now been in waste for over 25 years. So I knew that I’d found my place that I can make a difference and that I believe in.
Clare:
And one thing you’re really good at is, how do I say this politely? Making yourself known in meetings? Know Your Place is quite triggering to me, but finding your own space and place, how do you do that for others?
Maree:
That was quite a challenge for me. You’re right. I am a talker and so my biggest challenge is to keep to the time and I admit that. But as I’ve become a manager, I now watch other people who are trying to find the quiet time, the break in the conversation and how to get into that. And so now I’m much more aware about intentionally asking people into that conversation to make sure we’re all heard. Because I used to go to leadoff meetings, inception meetings, W, waste, last on the agenda after sustainability. And I’d intentionally wear red. I wasn’t going to disappear in that crowd of black students. Yes we’re small, but we have a high impact on that job. I had to fight my way into that discussion.
I don’t have to have that fight anymore. Because yes, I’m very, very fortunate and very humbled by the acknowledgement that I get into meetings. Most people are aware of me, the girl in red curly hair who turns up before I come and that’s very warming to know that I feel like I belong there. Which is a bit about Know Your Place, right? You become very humble and you don’t need that big introduction anymore. But that took a lot of work. But more importantly, bring a buddy, right? Today we brought a buddy. Bring in the younger crowd, bring in people from the outside and make sure they’re welcome and involved in the conversation. And I see that as a really big part of my current role as you progress in your career.
Clare:
The sustainability space and probably the space you’re working in specifically is changing rapidly. How do you handle not knowing the answer sometimes?
Maree:
That is a really good question. My husband was horrified that I actually said to a client very recently, “I need to think about that.” It’s very un-me, right? I’m a fly by the seat in my pants, and back my judgement . But occasionally I do need to say to people I need a moment to think. To put it in perspective, to see that it aligns and that I’m not going to jeopardise another component by my actions.
I think we have to be that more holistic and especially as things are moving at a very fast pace, we all don’t have the knowledge. We’re doing an incredible amount of training and expanding our knowledge at the moment. It doesn’t matter whether you’re in super economy space or whether you are in the material space and how are we coming together. It’s even more important now that we are working together because we’ve got our foot and the brake pretty hard trying to slow things down, and to make that huge difference. Sometimes it’s scary thinking that my predecessor engineers built so much concrete structure that we are trying to undo in some respects.
Clare:
Great. All right, thank you very much.
Mia:
Maree now turns to her right to yarn with Dan Tatton from Creative Victoria. Dan comes from a background in policy, strategy, and project management in both not-for-profit and public sectors. He’s been a board member, chair community groups and advised in the department of premier and cabinet. He believes the key to change is strategies that focus on community engagement.
Maree:
Dan and I have worked together in the past and over the last few weeks we’ve got to know each other a bit more. And I was surprised to hear that you took a career change since we’ve worked on a job together. I want to know where and was that intentional?
Dan Tatton
It was. I was as surprised as anyone that I had a career change on kind of a refugee from a law degree a long time ago. And during COVID, midst of lockdown, a great opportunity at a fantastic small not-for-profit called 3000acres came up and I think I only felt permission to apply because I never thought I’d get the job. So always be ambitious in that sense. Just putting your application and decide later, and got offered the job and just had a fantastic year there. It’s so 3000acres, it’s very small not-for-profit and it’s mission is to help more people grow more food in more places. And it was a real left turn for me. I’d been in public servant for about six years at that point and I don’t know what the context was, whether it was just lockdown, we had no sense of agency.
People were telling us when we could and couldn’t leave our home, etc. So it felt like the one part of my life that I could influence as well. And so just jumped on with that and completely different experience from the public service and just got a lot of energy from that. From a small not-for-profit, I think it takes up quite a bit more energy but you’re investing more energy, you get more energy back. And we did manage to pull off some wonderful projects during that time. And I’m really focused on community. I think when I approach sustainability, everyone’s got their Passive House. And I think if you’re looking to get into sustainability, find your kind of what your attraction is, what you’re aligned with. For me it was community gardening as well. And there’s a picture up there on the wall and that’s I think second from the right and that’s a picture of a big truck at series with six tonnes of olives in it.
And that was a project called Olives. The oil that we’ve run a few times and credit where credit’s due, olives to oil was not my idea and a lot of people put some other work. So just putting that out there. The idea was that, well a couple of angles sustainability wise. One was that there’s a sort of reminding people that we have a lot of resources around us that we just take for granted, and that was the resource. There was olives on people’s trees so we just arranged for anyone who had an olive tree or who had a neighbour who had an olive tree just to turn up to a couple of drop off sites and give us your olives And then we would take them away to get them pressed into olive oil. And then a few weeks later after that, when we distribute it to you… Fantastic weekend, people cancelled about three times due to lockdowns often on Thursday night. Just wonderful.
You get kids turned up with 500 grammes in a shopping bag and then you get sort of 80 year old nana from around the corner from me who turn up, try to give you 20 kilogrammes of olives as well so you get free oil. So we do that and it just reminded everyone of power of community I think coming together for a collective purpose and people who lived five doors down from each other for 20 years had never really met, came together. So it was big left turn for me but wonderful.
Maree:
Did that impact your thinking about low food miles in a broader sense?
Dan:
Yeah it did. I mean that was one of the driving forces for 3000acres was food security. And a big part of that is accessibility of food within your local area. And it’s noticed at home as well we grow more of our food. We’ve got a big list of 27 sort of sustainability goals on the fridge and they range from everything from, I think we’ve got growth this year growth three fruits, foods that you’ve never grown before, grow more food, build a cubby house, divest from major bank break up with the supermarket. So it’s kind of working our way through that and it’s been a good reminder that you don’t need to do anything particularly. Don’t look for the silver bullet I think to be sustainable, there’s all aspects of life have an impact. So all aspects of life are a bit of an opportunity. And I’m kind of feeling spread thin a bit at the moment, but I don’t know how it came about.
But I run a Friday morning playgroup for kids cause I’ve got two young daughters and we do lots of stuff about sustainability. It’s just great, get them young, get them involved. So it’s just a default. The way they grow up as well on a committee for a kinder. So we push to get a sustainability order audit for that. So it’s big waste and energy thing. So it doesn’t have to be a big career change. All aspects of life there’s an opportunity to reduce it. But do, do a career change, go and explore it. Don’t wait, don’t wait for the perfect role cause you don’t know what it is yet. And also if you like me, you’ll just be paralysed with indecision waiting for it and it gives you an excuse not to go out and explore.
So just go out and try something new. And I think once you’ve just head in a direction, they talk about navigation aeroplanes and they say they don’t go from A to B, they kind of go and then they realign and do that and that’s kind of what you do. You get to another position, you’ve got a better vantage point, you’ve got new horizons. And I think when you jump, you find a community wherever you land and they help you model where you might go next and you just get a good sense of solidarity.
Maree:
I like that phrase. Wherever you jump is a community where you land.
How do you feel about the footprint you make and the opportunity to leave a lesser footprint for your kids or to live a more sustainable life with your foot on the brake rather than an accelerator? How do you do that?
Dan:
I think just with kids it feels like a way to expand your world a bit. I think when we talk about sustainability, it’s all about deprivation and reduction of harm, which it is. But I think there’s real opportunity to look at how you live your life and change it. And I think much of impact is material through consumption and that’s not kind of what makes for a rich life. So I think we’ve found with the kids, they joke about mom and dad work at the op shop cause we go to the op shop all the time, but that’s kind of the way they are. And I think just try little things all the time.
People talk about the bin liner moment. So you’re freaking out about your impact on the planet and you don’t know where to start and maybe I’ll never fly again. It’s all too big. But then you start with, “Oh maybe, I won’t use a bin liner.” And then you slowly, “That was pretty easy.” And then you move on to the next thing, and you start reaching out to other people as well and you get involved in the local food swap or something like that and it just kind of cascades from there. And the sense of possibility once you’ve taken that first step I think just expands your ambitions and your sense of agency and capacity builds as well. I think as well.
Mia:
Dan now turns to Sam Peart, Hassell’s global head of sustainability to yarn. As you’ll hear Sam, like all of our speakers, lives and breathes sustainability. With work spanning 20 different countries, steering sustainability strategies and initiatives across a wide variety of building typologies and now helping Hassell to innovate and embed sustainability.
Dan:
I feel like you’re probably the more entrenched in terms of linear sustainability career. It feels a bit capital as sustainability career. So I just want to perhaps for the benefit of some of the people here are starting out, just to talk about what appears a linear journey but which I’m sure is not, just where you started from, how you’ve worked through it.
Sam Peart
So I actually started in an architecture degree and this is something I’ve said that I’ll only say to people at the pub over a beer, but now you’ve put me on the spot in front of a lot of people. So I was changing universities and I was at the pub when I was filling in the paperwork to change universities and ended up in an engineering degree. So that’s about the kink in the linear that happened. But off the back of that, ended up at Arup for an internship. Started in what was the ESD team before ESD was about and then kind of went from there. So 14 years with them all about the place. Then was lucky enough to be given an opportunity at Development Victoria once I got back into the country, after I did Sydney, Singapore, Los Angeles, and then Melbourne.
And that kind of gave me a little bit of a different perspective going from a consultant type role into not only a developer but government developer. Kind of change my tap a little bit and that’s why I met you, which is fantastic. And then we dragged Clare into the fold. So I did two years, nine months, Development Victoria with a really motivated, awesome crew. Developing up their sustainability strategy, building a team, Clare’s taken on that mantle, doing a much better job than I was, which is fantastic. And then Hassell kindly let me stroll through these doors and we’ve been hanging out with these guys for the last six months, which has been fabulous.
Dan:
So usual self-deprecation scenario.
Sam:
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Dan:
So just on that note, how do you influence? You’ve been in what, three pretty big organisations now, how do you get sustainability on the agenda?
Sam:
Make friends and make phone calls basically. Kat talked about… It’s an ethos, it’s not a job. Clare talked about that as well, actually we’ve all kind of talked about that and we’ll get to this bit when I get my turn as well. But moving from or entering the workforce basically in a box, in this person does this job and that’s it, everyone else does other jobs. Then moving into an organisation where it just was about active or almost handing over agency to a whole bunch of 250 really motivated people with 45 projects. It wasn’t, “Here’s how you’re going to do things.” It was “Tell me about all your 45 projects.” And we did, we mapped all 45 projects, is that right? How can we help on every single project? That was 45 projects and then moved over to Hassell, it’s 700 people and 400 and something live projects.
And before I accepted the job I was like all projects all people or nothing. And they’re like, “Yeah, go on Sam. Good one.” But again, coming in it’s like there is so much energy, so much motivation, so many runs on the board already and it’s not about me and a team of people in the corner doing sustainability. It’s about reminding everyone that they’ve got the skills and the power and the projects and the networks. All they need is a little bit of confidence and a little bit of a safety net and we’re on. So that’s what I’ve been kind of really enjoying about the different roles but also has been really humbling along the way.
Dan:
So something about permission there. Yeah. How do you give somebody permission? It sounds like people need sometimes to be given permission rather than give themselves permission.
Sam:
I think it’s a really sorry state that we’ve got ourselves into that people need permission, right? I had a conversation a couple of months ago and someone I’d been working in government and someone said to me, “I’m surprised you’ve moved into a design practise because I thought your other role would be more impactful.” I was really offended for myself but also really offended on behalf of the industry that, that’s the way we think about things. That the person with the title that’s been in the box for X years or X decades is the one who’s got the permission to do this.
And so I guess my push and the push for this whole kind of discussion and what we’re trying to do at Hassell is remove the need for permission. And Clare talked about failure and successes and sharing those with Mia. I think that’s really key. I think remembering that it’s not just the box you sit in behind your desk. You can pick up the phone, bring people in, you don’t need permission. If you’re not sure the self-awareness and authenticity that’s come up as well, pick up the phone, someone’s going to be ready to help. You’ve got the skills, the networks and the platform to do something. And we’ve all talked about how we’ve done that kind of in our own lives as well.
Dan:
Ask forgiveness, not permission.
Sam:
That’s it. Done that one too many times.
Dan:
And is there a cultural change when you come into a new organisation? So I feel like you’ve been a bit recruited in a way, so that your reputation procedure will be… I feel like the organisations are perhaps primed or think they’re primed before you arrive.
Sam:
No, look, I think it’s usually a cultural change for me, which is always what’s so exciting about it. so the first three months at Development, the first three months here I was basically just chucking hours in people’s calendars. Having one on ones asking what are you working on? What motivates you? I’ve been asked not to swear, but what pisses you off? I’ve also been asked not to talk about beer and I’ve done that already.
It’s just getting to know the heartbeat of an organisation, the people that work within that organisation and I need to adapt in order to have influence but not influence people. It is about building confidence, building agency. If people are like, “I really want to do this, but I don’t quite have the tools,” it’s like “Well let’s sit down for an hour and figure out what you need. If I can’t give it to you, I’ll find somebody who can and we’ll get on with the job.” So I think for me it’s not about the difference in culture. It’s For me really about adapting to I guess the space that I’ve been given to walk into, understanding what my place is in that community, and doing what I can to support them to do it on their own.
Dan:
Seems like there’s a mindset as well as a skillset.
Sam:
Being kind.
Dan:
Yeah, just seems like there’s a mindset as well as a specific skillset and I wonder if there’s people around the room who are probably starting out. People talk about confidence as a skill set as well as formal qualifications like Clare has as well. So is it your experience that just the energy is bringing energy to it and a bit of a passion is important to formal qualifications?
Sam:
I think that’s important but whenever I’ve spoken to anyone in this organisation, it’s just about two things. Self awareness. If you know how to do it, crack on. If you don’t, find someone who might. If they don’t, they can connect you with someone else. And authenticity. If you didn’t do it, don’t say you did it. If we did kind of learn something instead of driving something, let’s talk about that. The successes and failures piece. If everyone plays by those two rules then we all have a role to play. And if we all just rock up, either to pick up the phone or sit across a table from someone with self awareness and authenticity, then that’s super powerful. All of a sudden you’ve activated in honour. So I think that’s it from my perspective.
Dan:
Brilliant.
Sam:
Thanks.
Mia:
And finally, Sam turns to Kat to yarn with her, completing the circle back at the heart.
Sam:
So we have heard a lot about what you do now and you’ve been a fabulous facilitator and host thus far. But tell us about Kat your story, where you came from and how you got to where you are now.
Kat:
I was a PE teacher in a formal life, so don’t hold that against me. I always stand up for what I believe in no matter what. My father always instilled that in me. My father’s the aboriginal side, my mother is the Irish-English side. When I was teaching a lot, as a peer teacher I also taught geography and I could always see there was nothing taught about my culture and it was really hard. And I come from an era where we weren’t allowed to say you’re aboriginal, weren’t allowed to speak our language. It was taboo. And as soon as you mention you’re aboriginal people would shut off from you and that was really hurtful. So I had to pretend to be something I wasn’t. And so as I said, it was always in search of where I belonged. And after a while of teaching, which I loved, I thought no, I’ve got to do something.
So that was my breakthrough to say no, I’ve got to stand firm, I want to find out and help people understand that connection to country because it was that connection to that country that made me get up from a job that was secure to go travel. So travelling around Australia, I started up my own business and started working with BHP and Bureau Veritas which are here, Coca-Cola and I was working with their [inaudible 00:41:01] to try to get aboriginal people into their companies, and my first job was with a company that was their South African team, white, south African. So here comes this aboriginal woman speaking language and I looked around and I heard them say, “You’re from South Africa?” And there was dead silence and we all just stared at each other and went this is going to be a hard yakka. But after a while he said it was a big challenge of eight months of getting them to understand culture and why we had to embed it in the company itself.
But from that I said I was an aboriginal woman. In my culture it was you have males, you have certain other things, you have females, aboriginal men, other people, and aboriginal women are right down here and still are. So I was thinking bugger that. So I just thought, what can I do? So I said okay, “I’ll do it myself.” So I started that lonely journey of travelling Australia, working with companies, doing indigenous employment projects, which is what the government called them, getting funding and helping them to do it. In the meantime I got to know a lot of traditional owners and elders, what was going on, and I could always see country changing and country was always talking to me. We say it talks us through the wind, through the leaves touching the tree. It talks to us. And I could see it was something different about it that we were slowly destroying. We were hurting mother. So I thought okay, I’ve got to do something else about that. So I thought the best people to work with in projects were architects.
So for me it was more like getting architects to understand that what you design needs to work with country, needs to connect with country, be a part of country, but also needs to tell a story. It can’t be just a building a structure, it needs to be living. I did say I did stalk you a little bit but not much. Living building and you’re right, every building should be living and having a story. And that’s what it needs to be. So that was, that’s what my modern life. And coming from not many people in my space to now there’s quite a few people, which is great, it was hardcore because no one wanted to listen to a female, an aboriginal female. And even my own people thought that was hard, I shouldn’t be doing that. So I was deemed a wandering auntie and still am because that’s my place.
I travel a lot, I haven’t found home yet. I do see Victoria as very welcoming. So thank you very much coming from Western Australia over to here to your lovely weather. So in shorts, mind you in the middle of winter from Perth. But it’s been a very difficult journey. But today marks something really big in my 24 year career as a First Nation’s advisor and that is, I never thought I’d see the day where an aboriginal female would be hosting something like this because we’re always left out. And that’s why I don’t go to a lot of women’s events because I’m not included really. This is sustainability because you’re sustaining our culture, our beliefs and I’m able to share that with you and call you my allies, my brothers and sisters. So thank you for doing so, that’s in short.
Sam:
Thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you so much for agreeing to host-
Kat:
Pleasure-
Sam:
With our wonderful Mia. We all talked about Sustainability a lot as an ethos and you’ve talked about every building should be a living building and those sorts of things. How? I’ve been working with a lot of the teams here around not just slapping extra stuff on or removing stuff during documentation but altering the way that we actually start evolving the way, that we’re setting ourselves up. What advice can you give on setting yourself up to practice caring for country and practice sustainability from the get go?
Kat:
I honestly believe throw away what you’ve been taught because it doesn’t work. And I can honestly say hand on my heart and working with a lot of people here and great new testimony, I turn their world upside down. I’m Christian where we throw out what you’ve been taught about designing and that turn now, which is out there now designing with country, which I never know where that’s come from.
So for me, you need to listen. And that’s the hardest thing for everybody is to sit down, I come into my co-design, co-decide meetings with digital learners when I say don’t bring a pen, don’t bring a pencil. I need you to sit there and just listen to what we have to say. Listen to the stories of country that we are gifting to you. Listen to country and what she is saying to you, and I’ve got a quote up there and I firmly believe in that. Mine is “Stop, breathe, connect. But you need to listen to country.” And that way your designs are more creative. But not just that you bring our stories to life within the architecture, within the landscape, within the biophilia. So listen.
Sam:
What would you say? Because a lot of the things we get is, it’s too early, it’s too late, I don’t have time. How would you encourage people to take the time?
Kat:
I’d swear and say bullshit here but I’m going to say sweat. I’ll, we’ve
Sam:
We’re in the swear club.
Clare:
I say early engagement is crucial and I mean I’m really firm on saying to bring you on a cultural journey. I’m there to help facilitate things to make sure that you have that wonderful experience of knowing our culture. But at the same time you are there firsthand. So you are listening and hearing all these stories and our elements and our protocols firsthand as a consultant, I’m not saying it’s going to come through me, then I’ll tell you. I want you to be there in that room or wherever we are on country preferably to listen so that you hear those stories the way that we tell things. We are oral traditionalists. And if you haven’t gone out by now, I’m a story teller. So the thing is… I forgot the question. See?
Sam:
We’re having a great time!
Kat:
So it’s more about getting in that early engagement before you even think about designing. Because if you don’t have that early engagement, you are designing things, things that you think we want and it’s not. And I can tell you now, it’s not about the kid in the candy store who can build the biggest building, you can build the shiniest thing. They’re not stories of country. Stories of country are things that you can say. When you’re designing. Can you hear it? Can you see it? Can you smell it?
Can you feel it? That’s connecting to country. That’s true designing that early engagement process. And as I said, be respectful because we’ve got to remember you are being welcomed into their home. We’re knocking on the door, ringing the doorbell, wait to be invited. Don’t go in there and change the channels and move the furniture out and raid the Tim Tams in the fridge and do all of that. Just make sure we have permission first. And if you don’t know, simply ask first. I have a thing saying ask. I can never say it. It sounds like ass. Ask, first.
Sam:
I am going to steal the final question you asked Clare. Because I thought it was fabulous. What is one thing that everyone in this room can do tomorrow?
Kat:
I would love everyone to go outside. If possible take your shoes off. I know it’s cold and I know it’s wet, I know it’s raining, but that’s country and feel country beneath your feet. You know when you get your feet and you scrunch them on the ground, you go but don’t do it on hard gravel and stuff like that. I want that taken out of the podcast, mitigation of risk. But I want you to feel country beneath your feet. I want you to once I say, stop, connect to country. Taking that breath and really feel and let yourself know, I want to know what you hear.
What can you smell, what can you feel? That’s my takeaway because that’s when you can truly say, I sort of understand your culture. I know where you are coming from. Hey wouldn’t that be great after that big C word, we’re not going to mention the C word. After two to years coming back into the city, coming back out of our homes, which we really like now because we don’t want to go back into work, is experiencing what it’s like to come back and that beautiful experience of saying country is inside the buildings as well. It’s everywhere now. And you can tell that today, everyone is here. We need to experience country. So take your shoes off, put them on the ground, scrunch them up and really feel country. That’s my takeaway.
Sam:
Amazing. Thank you very much Kat.
Kat:
My pleasure. Pleasure.
Okay, so my takeaway from this, when we talk about Know Your Place, it’s experiences like we’ve talked about today it’s about your Passive House. How do we do this? How do we do something that can be so simple but make it so connected to country and the fact that it may take a bit more money, it may take a bit more of thought process into building homes, building buildings, but it’s the long term gain. Is it the person that stands up in the room and says all that rubbish? Doesn’t have to be the rubbish. It has a place, it can have a purpose.
Remember to put out which bin’s a correct bin. And it can be sharing a food, recycling our food. I go past lemon trees all the time and I want to get a pinch because they’re a dollar a lemon. The thing is there’s so much food wastage, what do we do about that? There’s so many things we can do. We are privileged that we have food.
And the simple thing of coming in and standing firm on your principles saying no, this has to be top of the list. Sustainability needs to be top of the list now. And for me listening all this, it resonates so much because we’ve been doing it for thousands of years. And now I finally hear you all saying not to say I’m right Kat, I’d like to hear that. But the fact is that you’re listening to our culture, that you are now taking it seriously and it only takes small steps to make one big footprint. So everyone can start thinking in your role, in the workplace, in your role at home, in your role in community. How can you know your place, share your place, but also keep it going. As I said, we can no longer heal country, it’s too far, but we can connect. We can help by stop what we are doing destroying country.
Mia:
The feeling in the room on the night was amazing. I’d say it was quite hopeful what the future can hold and having all these young women and some men be involved in such a difficult topic of discussion was really inspiring. And having that attendance in person was extra special. It’s so easy to feel overwhelmed with the topic of sustainability and listening to the panelists tonight, really they broke it down for us in their career and experiences and told a story on how they’ve had some failures and successes and playing on the theme Know Your Place. It doesn’t matter what your role is, you can do something.
I think it’s really important to ask good questions or even bad questions. Having the topic out there, even if you don’t know the answer is really important. And it doesn’t matter if you have all the knowledge in the world or nothing. That’s how you can make change. And over time you might build skills up like our panelists. You contribute in a certain way, but it just starts with that one question. And that’s a small step, but it’s in the right direction. Thank you to our brilliant speakers, Kat, Sam, Dan, Maree, and Clare, and our event guests for their enthusiasm, questions and support. We had a lot of fun.
This event was organised by the incredible women of WomenIN at Hassell. This episode was produced by Prue Vincent, audio support from Myles AV. Head to our website to find out more about sustainability at Hassell. Thanks for listening.
